to answer your last question, last year? Last month? INdia is plenty violent.

I will have to second Doug. Indian domestic politics isn't really my element, but if you think domestic unrest is unique to China alone, or even excessive, you would be wrong. India faces the same sorts of problems, and dissaffected farmers haven't simply been rioting against the government, some have even taken up arms. Besides the sectarian violence in Jammu & Kashmir, unrest in India's impoverished Northeast provinces are commonplace. There are literally still Maoist guerillas operating in India, launching attacks against government and police forces.

OK, point taken. But set that aside...this interview is still pretty startling.

I know what you mean Simon, the statements made by agricultural vice-minister are textbook Orwellian. Riots are democracy, censorship promotes government response, Black is White, War is Peace, etc etc.

The only thing he has half right is the last statement is that these incidents of unrest are inevitable to a certain degree. Economic liberalization, while good for the many will leave some behind feeling marginalized. Irrespective of the quality of government this is not going to change and the only way to put a stop to them is to either reverse course or suppress them with force.

What is startling is what I won't say because of my conflict of interest, but what we are all thinking....regarding, well...the repo...

I googled 'Chen Xiwen' and 'democracy'. It seems that our Mr. Chen is quite fond of using the 'D' word.

I, however, have to wonder if he knows it's true meaning.

I mean, does anyone remember that Chinese official, forget his name, who was mobbed by HK/mainland reporters during the ridiculous patriotism debate in HK coming out of some hotel. He lost it with the reporters and told them all that they were 'violating his human rights'. Scary stuff.

The point made by Chen that everybody seems to miss (especially ESWN who ignores it completely) is his clear statement that village democracy IS NOT going to be expanded beyond villages (which don't count as administrative units in the CPC hierarchy) to townships or counties. Any experiments in this regard are deemed "illegal" by Vice Minister Chen.

Hmmm, I think I missed that as well. Time for a re-read. Thanks Dylan.

the election of town-level or above officials was not the point in the Chen Xiwen interview. he is involved in agricultural policy, not political reforms. he may be able to give some personal opinions, but that won't be official position.

in any case, the argument against town-level or above arguments are obvious.

a village may have 2,000 residents living in close proximity. everybody knows the candidates. it will be an informed vote, and the voters will be able to watch in close-up what the new leader does.

a town might have 50,000 residents scattered in 20 villages. some villagers may have never been to some of those other villages. most residents don't personally know the candidates. who wins the election? the outside experience is simple: the guy with a lot of his own money, support from black gold, slick ads, owns media porperties, owns factories and shops that employ many peole, and has no compunction about lying and triangulating issues. do these properties guarantee that he will be a good town leader? most probably, they will probably mean that he is going to be one bad dude. it is true that you can toss him out in three years' time, but that's three lost years, after which you will elect someone else like him.

i don't think democracy is bad per se. i just don't accept on face value happy talk like "good things are guaranteed if only we are allowed to hold elections." it is not guaranteed, but people don't want to think about what pre-conditions and safeguards are necessary.

you can move up the ladder in geography. who wins the election for mayor of hefei city? the governor of sichuan province? the same set of characteristics listed above. add another doubt: what does the winner of the election know about running sichuan province with more than 100 million people?

Dylan, you didn't expect a vice minister of the CCP to say wider democracy was a good idea, did you?

ESWN's point is right - democracy is not just about people voting once every few years. It is about proper rule of law, accountability via a free media and working courts, firm property rights and plenty more besides. That said I disagree that greater voting rights won't work above village level. No one said voting is perfect, but with the other pieces and institutions also in place, it's the best system we've got. It allows people a say, it creates accountability from those in charge.

It's the only system that has sustainably worked over long periods of history.

the democracy bit wasn't in quotes, how do we know chen said it? (yes, yes, he may very well like the d word, but he wasn't quoted with it here.)

if you look at what he said in quotes it was roughly 'they know their rights and that's a good thing'. that doesn't necessarily equal democracy.

Sentence of the year by ESWN:
"i don't think democracy is bad per se". Hu Jintao should be proud of you.

Another pearl "most residents don't personally know the candidates". Ah, ok, great argument against democracy. Now, I'm convinced: I think I'm going to turn myself in a CCP dictatorship apologist as soon as possible. And, of course, no more voting in my decadent western country: fuck to these bourgeois conventions! Thank you.

The more I read ESWN the more I realize that a picture is better than a thousand words.

Really, how Simon can seriously answer such statements is beyond me.

Best.

Enzo

i'm current reading the book by the Henen AIDS doctor Gao. in one section, she has gone to an AIDS village and distributing free drugs bought from money that she raised. more than a hundred people have queued up. the next person in line said, "You are so wonderful. Did Chairman Mao send you?" Gao had to patiently explain that Chairman Mao died more than twenty years ago. Enzo, if you think that there can be a rationally determined direct election in Henan province, population 100 million mostly in such rural areas, GOOD LUCK! It will be won by the person who legally changes his/her name to Mao Zedong, or a television actor. And that will surely help to improve the lot of the AIDS villages!

ESWN quotes from two articles about Chen Xiwen's statements, one from SCMP, but completely ignores the other article in SCMP about Chen's statements where he is directly quoted on village/township democracy and the illegality of experiments in township democracy. The article to which I refer is by Cary Huang "Shake Up of Grass Roots Government in Pipeline".

Excuses.

Best.

Enzo

ESWN, I'm not convinced. It sounds rather patronising to say villagers aren't ready for democracy and they will vote for Mao. If real candidates feel there is something worthwhile to campaign for, and so long as corruption can be kept in check, the candidates will have an incentive to educate the electorate in the merits of their case.

Echo, I tracked down the below article which actually quotes Mr. Chen unlike the SCMP:
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"It shows farmers' democratic awareness is improving, but unfortunately their sense of law and order has not improved as quickly," Chen, who was in charge of agricultural policy, was quoted as saying.
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From Reuters alertnet.org:
http://tinyurl.com/7645m

Hey, I think a Chinese offical made a joke just there! Good one.

"It sounds rather patronising to say villagers aren't ready for democracy"

america's founding fathers didn't think americans were ready for democracy either. that's why they insisted on that pesky electoral college thing.