April 07, 2005

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Talking amongst yourselves (Updated)

Almost a month ago Kevin Drum pointed to a study on blog behavior and the self-reinforcing nature of bloggers and their links (the full study is "Divided They Blog"). In the extended entry is a chart that demonstrates the links between 40 of the top left and right wing blogs (20 from each side). The diagrams show very little interaction between the two sides. It's no surprise that those with similar partisan viewpoints should link to like-minded others more often - also called incestuous amplification. What is surprising is the lack of any significant linkage between the two sides at all. When it comes to political blogging there is plenty of preaching to the converted but little real debate.

It means is blogging, rather than being different or better, is merely a reflection of the partisanship common in politics. Instead of a chance for real debates over ideas it is far more common to find invective, insults and ridicule. That's a shame because it leaves much of the potential of the blogosphere wasted. Here is a vast, diverse collection of expertise and opinion that rewards insularity and punishes outreach. It is easy to see why.

Blogs live for two things: traffic and links. The bigger blogs derive significant revenues from their advertising, thus making it even more important to increase visitors. The easiest way to do that is to latch onto bigger bloggers with similar politics and views. With so many blogs all clambering for attention "the squeaky wheels get the grease". The more extreme and partisan the greater chance bigger blogs will link and more readers will be exposed to that site. And once it starts working the system re-enforces itself - what worked once will work over and over again. The audience dictates the message and at least in these early days of blogging those most likely to read blogs are the politically active. These readers already have views and are most comfortable with sites that reflect them. Should readers go to sites with who's views they disagree and dare post comments, they are quickly shouted down, although it should be noted often those who post comments at "opposing" sites are asking for trouble.

In short, extremes outweigh moderation. Partisanship outweighs consensus. Shouting outweighs debate. And all that extremism and partisanship and shouting achieves virtually nothing.

I've been fortunate enough to be part of a recent email debate amongst some great bloggers. I commented at one stage how intelligent and civil the discussion had been, despite some firmly held views on a controversial topic. Those involved include William Rice, Nitin of The Acorn, Dan of tdaxp and Bill Roggio of the Fourth Rail. Bill put it best:

I think the conversation is civil because we are like minded individuals interested in a freer and better world. Our ideas or outlooks may differ, but in the end we are working towards the same goals - greater knowledge and the sharing of ideas. We aren't discussing silly conspiracy theories but serious issues that have many different angles that must be addressed.

I am always looking for new ideas and different perspects, and will not cling to my own to the death. If there is a better view than my own, I want to hear it and incorporate it. I have a feeling we all hold this view, hence the healthy debate.

It's not hard to hold a civilised debate. It involves some simple skills and two basic rules. Firstly treat each person with respect; secondly follow Bill's advice and keep an open mind. That's the way of rationality and reason. It involves listening and thinking. It involves adapting and questioning. It involves learning and research. It is not easy. But things worth having rarely are.

We need more links across the divide. But the blogosphere will be a much greater place if we can bridge the chasm. Is the blogosphere ready for sites dedicated to open debate without ad hominem attacks, with moderate or multiple viewpoints, where people follow the rules of listening, respect and having an open mind?

More reading

1. Gene Expression examined the same phenomena based on a study of red vs blue books and finished with this:

I'm wondering whether the Blue-Red schism is really more a manifestation of intellectual apathy on the part of the populace and less indicative of the ideological differences.

2. Dean Esmay disagreed with some of Kevin Drum's assertions but notes:
I believe that, with rare exception, most of us who have been at the blogging game for more than a year or two simply don't like cross-blog pissing matches, and in a year like 2004, back-and-forth link volleys between Bush and Kerry supporters was almost guaranteed to be nasty. Some people enjoy that sort of nastiness but I don't happen to be one of them and I know I'm not unique in that respect.

It was a very trying and difficult year [2004] and I must admit that during the period from the Democratic convention until election day, I don't think I enjoyed blogging much at all. I hope we never have an election year like that again.

Which proves my point that there has been no room for middle ground. Perhaps it was a reflection of the passions felt in the broader American polity leading up to the election. But shouldn't blogging aspire to being more than that?

Update 4/7/05: Dean Esmay responds and (civilly) disagrees, calling this the "echo chamber myth". He has three key points:

1. Dean doubts blogs "get powerful by being 'yes men' to each other".
2. I've missed that bloggers link opponents and explain why they are wrong.
3. Dean would like me to point out successful blogs based on this premise.

I'll start out by making an important point: all generalisations are wrong. Put another way, there are exceptions to every rule.

Sortapundit has a study of Instapundit's linkage patterns which highlights my point. Now it's impossible to ever read anywhere near as many blogs as one would like, and Dean is right that Glenn Reynolds does sometimes link to both sides of debates and those who disagree with him. But Sortapundit's study demonstrates this feedback loop perfectly: the same blogs cross referring and linking. It's not a matter of "yes men"; it's a matter of like-minded people re-enforcing each other's views. Look at the list of those linked by Glenn: most if not all of those blogs have similar opinions and views. There's your example, Dean.

Bryan in Dean's comments notes that many bloggers consider other blogs important sources of information but also ranked newspapers and news portals as significant sources. That makes perfect sense - blogs aren't generally trying to become news sources themselves (although occassionally they are, such as Captain Ed at the moment). But that's not relevant here. I'm not talking about news sources. I'm talking about linkage and opinion.

Plenty of people talk about the "long tail". While I have no proof, I suspect that to a large extent this echo chamber effect is a natural consequence of many blog readers also being bloggers. The blogger will read from their blogroll and that roll will rightly contain those "big" blogs with whom the blogger prefers. It is a human tendancy that we prefer like minded people...just think of your friends. You may differ, perhaps even over politics, but you will share many of the same values and ideas. It's a core element of friendship. Blog linkage can be thought of the same. Just in mainstream media, the big blogs largely lead the daily blog agenda, and smaller blogs take that lead and link to similar pieces. That's how the echo chamber effect flows.

That's not to say bloggers don't ever link to those with differing views. Dean is right that bloggers love to link and discuss why they are wrong. This current exchange is a perfect example of that. But in the main, at least for the blogs I follow, this kind of exchange is rare. It's the exception. In my reading I find the same posts being referred to with similar comments/thoughts by similar bloggers. If it's to link to an "opposing" blogger, it more often than not consists of ad hominem attacks rather than reasoned discource.

Coming back to Sortapundit's piece. The top ranks of blogging tend to be stable. Big bloggers are big for a reason. I haven't done the numbers but certainly in the almost 2 years I've followed blogs the main ones have not changed a gerat deal. The only new "big blogs" are either journalists joining the medium or those that are more extreme than existing big bloggers.

I find this comment by Dean interesting: It is true that in the final few months of the election I was probably linking a lot less lefty blogs. Why? I couldn't bear the nastiness. The concentrated hatred spewed at and about Bush nauseated me. Even then, I still occasionally linked Kerry supporters like Kevin Drum and Andrew Sullivan. Perhaps the 2004 election was a particularly polarised time in the blogosphere, just as it was in the USA. But that statement by Dean is backing what I am saying. The "nastiness" is not as prevelant at the moment but it's still there. (As an aside it's interesting that comment implies Dean is "right" even though his previous paragraph argues against that).

Scott Kirwin asks the same above referenced study be redone in a non-election year. I'm all for that. I suspect the results would not differ significantly. I'd dearly love to have more time to provide more and better examples as proof of my thesis. Until I get that time I'll leave it to each reader to decide if my original premise - that more extreme bloggers get more readers and links and real debate is rare - is correct based on their own reading.

I don't deny civil debates occur in the blogosphere. We're in the middle of one now. But they are the exceptions, not the rule. That's the shame of it.

Blog_Connections.gif

posted by Simon on 04.07.05 at 10:32 AM in the Blogging category.




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Comments:

I'm not so sure it's so clear-cut as that. I think bloggers reach a penetration and saturation point-their blogs even out and the linkification is what it would ever be. I think bloggers find a comfort level and a comfort audience and generally that's where they stay after a year or two into blogging.

Or maybe I'm just being lazy and need to get off my ass and go link to more people.

posted by: Helen on 04.05.05 at 05:07 PM [permalink]

Honestly the more I looked at that study the sillier it got. How they defined "left" and "right" was extremely arbitrary. They put at least one Kerry supporter in the "right" camp, just for example.

I continue to find the so-called "amplification" or "echo chamber" effect people talk about to be terribly exaggerated. Cross-blog debates happen all the time, including between left and right. I can't think of a week going by without seeing at least one.

posted by: Dean Esmay on 04.06.05 at 12:45 PM [permalink]

Dean:

I'd appreciate if you could point some of those examples out.

Thanks

posted by: Simon on 04.06.05 at 01:59 PM [permalink]

Simon,

The discussions the four of us have had is truly one of the highlights of my blogging.

I had seen the study you referred to and had found it quite intersting. I do have a few thoughts on why our discourse is civil, even in disagreement:

1) All of the four, in one way or another built some mutual relationships via email as a result of their blog. I find that email discourse is usually more polite than blogging comments, though it doesn't have to be.

2) We have not discussed religion, which often can bring out the worst in people. (Please note that I don't think that if we chose religion as a topic that we would be uncivil.)

3) We all share, I believe, a desire for democratic values to be supported. We have a common framework to analyze events.

4) We are not talking about domestic politics, which seems to me can be far more filled with passion than International Relations. Though the lead up to the Iraq War surely tests this thesis.

I hope that we have many more good dialogues and that we find more likeminded bloggers to debate with.

Thanks for your efforts and thoughts on all of our blogs.

Kind regards,

Bill Rice
Dawn's Early Light Blog

posted by: Bill Rice on 04.07.05 at 02:25 AM [permalink]

Simon
Give us examples of this. I for one only write about issues that I am passionate and or knowledgeable about; I don't write for links. If I wanted links, I would host porn.

Bloggers blog for a variety of reasons, not just for traffic. I've been writing long before Al Gore invented the Internet, and blogs are just another way to keep me from pestering the Wife with my stupid ideas.

Your theory may sound good to you, but I remain unconvinced that it is true. You need much more proof to back it up.

posted by: Scott Kirwin on 04.07.05 at 04:58 AM [permalink]

I took a moment to read the study you refer to, and many problems with it leapt to mind.
I believe that what the study shows us best is the divide amongst voters before the 2004 election here in the states.
Most blogs took sides during that election - which could explain the polarization shown by those cool diagrams.
I also believe that the participants were skewed by their own bias towards considering only a single dimension of the political spectrum: Liberal vs. Conservative. In the election of 2004 you would tend to get strong opinions one way or another; after all, very few people believed that any 3rd party had a chance.

What I believe would be more intellectually useful would be the same analysis today (non-election year) with more dimensions to the political spectrum.

For example, Dean Esmay supports Bush (Conservative position) but also supports gay marriage (Liberal position). I support gun ownership (conservative position) but believe that health care is a public good along the lines of fire and police protection (liberal position).

In short I believe that the study is flawed and needs to be redone using a better methodology. In the meantime I do not believe that it gives you the proof that you need to support your claims.

posted by: Scott Kirwin on 04.07.05 at 05:16 AM [permalink]

I'm also not so impressed by the study Kevin Drum mentioned over a month ago. In fact, the phenomenon of trackbacks or links from one "side" of the blogosphere to the other is an extremely simplistic view of what it means to "debate." For instance, it's possible that a right-side blogger could comment on a story about social security reform without citing what a left-side blogger thought about it. Instead, he/she might cite several mainstream news sources.

By the same token, a left-blogger like Kevin Drum can post about gay marriage without linking to what a right-side blogger thought about it.

Someone who is arguing (debating) for gay marriage would likely cite sources that they wanted to use to shore up their position. The only possible reason they could have for linking to someone they disagree with was to say "this is what I'm opposed to."

In a real world debate, with teams and a topic and all that, you don't necessarily always reference what your opponent says. You have your own sources to back up what you say.

A more relevant comparison, I might think, is how many times bloggers link to the same media sources. I think you'd find that bloggers are actually referencing a lot of the same material.

posted by: bryan on 04.07.05 at 07:31 AM [permalink]

Even ignoring all the issues that other commenters have raised with the study, I don't believe it supports any sort of "echo chamber" theory. Reynolds, Sullivan, and Hewitt all disagree with each other on lots of very substantive issues. Dean and Malkin disagree on almost everything. No one knows what Wretchard thinks on anything outside of foreign policy, but everyone links to him on that issue.

The point is that whatever leads to this partitioned graph, it isn't that bloggers don't link to those who disagree with them.

Furthermore, I invoke Occam's razor. If you are going to appeal to the structure of the blogosphere in order to explain the schism in the blogsophere, then you need a second explanation for the exactly corresponding schism in general society. It is simpler to suppose that the same mechanism is at work both in the blogosphere and in general society.

posted by: Doc Rampage on 04.08.05 at 03:32 AM [permalink]

One quick thought: links are not the only evidence of discourse. There are cases where people will refuse to link to sources/groups/etc that they find particularly objectionable (and sometimes, in 'it's all free' blogdom, that includes paid/registration sites). Another missing component of this is that the "internal" discussions of each side are often engaged with (though usually in opposition to) the arguments of the other side.

As I've noted elsewhere real dialogue, the kind that produces changed minds, is a slow process, one which is not, in many ways, well represented by knee-jerk blogging, and which is not at all aided by our "consistency at all costs" gotcha political/media/pundit culture. As you've noted before, I'm in favor of "pragmatic inconsistency" and I'm also a great supporter of people, particularly leaders, who will change their minds, and their policies, in the face of strong evidence.

posted by: Jonathan Dresner on 04.08.05 at 04:42 AM [permalink]




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